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Rush Holt's HR 811 Does extra damage than first rate | VCS-260 cheat sheet and Free test PDF

READER feedback ON"Rush Holt's HR 811 Does extra hurt than good"(53 Responses to this point...)

remark #1 [Permalink]... John Dean spoke of on 6/10/2007 @ 10:forty three pm PT...

Ellen has nailed it.

true ballots vs paper trails - Phony election activists, like those at DU, continue to con unsuspecting folks about what a ballot truly is. For over 200 years, a ballot has at all times been anything that a voter marks his/her vote on. They ought to no longer permit these individuals to redefine simply what a pollis.

DREs cheat - let's name a spade a spade...DREs are an abomination to honest elections, confirmed via hacking tests, and thousands of reports of wrong votes recorded. as far as i am concerned, anyone who poses as an activist but doesn't name OUT FOR a right away BAN ON DREs is a faux activist, with unscrupulous explanations for aiding this rattling invoice.

remark #2 [Permalink]... Caleb noted on 6/10/2007 @ 10:forty nine pm PT...

The Congressional Democrats' terribly disappointing twin failures to demand a timetable for ending the Iraq battle and guide meaningful election reform exhibit that they are not a superb counterforce to the Bush administration. helping a 3rd celebration for Congress isn't the answer to their failures, because it will simplest be certain the election of more Republicans. The best way to set up a meaningful opposition to the present regime is to find and aid effective basic challengers inside the Democratic birthday celebration. They have to help these challengers against incumbent Congressional Democrats who don't, at a minimal, exhibit guide of here: 1) a rapid withdrawal of american troops from Iraq; and a couple of) legislation guaranteeing fair and clear elections (chiefly by banning DREs). each Congressional Democrat who does not meet these minimal thresholds must be made to take into account from the grassroots that their craven behavior will lead to loss of optional office.

remark #3 [Permalink]... abacus mentioned on 6/10/2007 @ eleven:fifty eight pm PT...

might somebody help me? Ellen says:

"HR 811 puts these four Presidential appointees in can charge of extra obligations than these they've inadequately dealt with up to now, makes the EAC a everlasting agency, and gives it with everlasting funding."

in some way I can't find this in any version of the bill I've discovered.

The EAC is an abomination, in my book. however i might want to be capable of factor to a soecific clause


comment #4 [Permalink]... Simplify referred to on 6/11/2007 @ 12:fifty nine am PT...

Thanks for this. I support your principled stand.

remark #5 [Permalink]... the_zapkitty mentioned on 6/eleven/2007 @ 1:22 am PT...

... abacus noted...

"someway I can't find this in any version of the bill I've discovered."

while the specific text that boldly pointed out "EXTENSION OF AUTHORIZATION OF ELECTION suggestions commission" in the original edition of H.R. 811 has indeed been dropped within the version handed out of committee... the committee edition in its place amends HAVA to fund the EAC in perpetuity by way of quietly bypassing the EAC's sundown clause.

for instance...

`(4) processes FOR CONDUCTING checking out; charge OF user prices FOR COMPENSATION OF authorised LABORATORIES-

`(A) institution OF ESCROW ACCOUNT- The commission shall set up an escrow account (to be widely used because the `checking out Escrow Account') for making funds to accredited laboratories for the prices of the trying out performed in connection with the certification, decertification, and recertification of vote casting device hardware and software.

... obviously here's a permanent association, one among many such everlasting prerogatives for the EAC within the committee edition, so let's skip to...

(D) AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS- There are authorized to be appropriated to the Election information commission such sums as may well be necessary to carry out the commission's duties under paragraphs (3) and (4) of section 231 of the support the us Vote Act of 2002 (as brought via subparagraph (A)).

and there's much more...

So "Holt II" still cash the EAC and funds it in perpetuity and there is a whole lot extra money concerned with it now. The committee edition now effectively money the EAC en passant as a substitute of actually overriding the common sundown clause.

This became no longer an accident, incidentally, here is the introduction of a new and badly designed Federal-level bureacracy. it's obtrusive in hindsight that this creation of an e-vote casting empire was a part of the rate Holt felt he had to pay to get election reform handed.

And identical to so lots of his Democratic colleagues in Congress he fails to see that agreeing to such a foul cut price "on their behalf" became no longer his choice to make in the first vicinity.

remark #6 [Permalink]... Dredd talked about on 6/eleven/2007 @ 5:02 am PT...

i am reminded once once again of the blind men across the elephant. each and every one grasps part of the elephant, varieties an image in his intellect, then varieties an opinion about what the elephant is.

One says "it's a palm tree", a further says "no its a snake", yet yet another forms an opinion that "it's an enormous fan".

The digital vote casting laptop "circulation" has shaped opinions in regards to the elephant for an awful lot longer than anybody grasping for prominence these daze:

"when they first began looking at this situation, returned in the core seventies, they found there have been loads of these systems that had been liable to fraud and out-and-out error," he mentioned.

(1988 Activist Ponders EVM history, emphasis introduced). government scientists who appeared on the issue shaped opinions too:

4.13.1 insufficient Pre-election Testing4.13.2 Failure to put into effect an sufficient Audit Trail4.13.3 Failure to supply for a Partial guide Recount4.13.four inadequate Ballots or Ballot-Reader Operation4.13.5 insufficient safety and administration Control4.13.6 inadequate Contingency Planning4.13.7 insufficient system Acceptance tactics

(NIST 1988, emphasis brought).

When it comes all the way down to it "the flow" is a bunch of blind folk grasping at a piece of the elephant and forming their sacred opinion. and that is in reality what concerns to them.

it really is the elephant within the room.

comment #7 [Permalink]... Dredd pointed out on 6/11/2007 @ 5:37 am PT...

The flow talks about a coming disaster. It got here forty years in the past.

jogs my memory of a piece of writing I examine today:

america is dealing with its worst summer season drought considering the dirt Bowl years of the incredible melancholy. Or perhaps worse nonetheless.

From the mountains and wasteland of the West, now into an eighth consecutive dry 12 months, to the wheat farms of Alabama, the place vegetation are failing on account of rainfall degrees 12 inches reduce than general, to the enormous soupy expanse of Lake Okeechobee in southern Florida, which has become so dry it basically caught fireplace a couple of weeks in the past, a continent is crying out for water.

(The impartial)

local weather trade capability: something your local weather is it's going to exchange.

obtained water? acquired floods? bought grime?

right here in "desert land" it has been the wettest spring some old timers can bear in mind. i like it. Makes things green.

If climate alternate is commonplace, yours and mine will change no matter what it is now. every so often slowly, occasionally radically.

The electronic vote casting desktop move is extra like a rock in a storm zone. All hell breaks unfastened on occasion however when the air clears the rock remains unchanged.

comment #eight [Permalink]... Phil spoke of on 6/eleven/2007 @ 5:43 am PT...

seeing that HR 811 will do greater hurt than respectable, or not it's an outstanding guess that it's going to get handed. because nothing but turds and burnt ash are left at the back of the rest this administration touches. Their senators behave like they are mentally challenged. perhaps they're, when it involves electronics. in all probability that's the entire problem here, that they're so clueless they have no idea what they are passing anymore. I rather doubt that at this aspect, I went that route early on when i was giving advantage of the doubt to the SOS's that have been allowing digital balloting MAchines, I mentioned, they had been clueless, mis-recommended, or corrupt.nowadays I say, "CORRUPT." There is no other excuse, if they don't take into account the crap, kill it.

So what's the count now of the harm?

Habius Corpus, Genevia conference, 1,2,3,four,5,6,7,eight,9,10 or the charter, and now no balloting.

now not to mention the entire crony positions.FCC, FDA, DHS, FBI, CIA, NSA, I bet some defense force crap has gone unhealthy too.

Am I lacking greater? i'm pretty sure i'm, however what does it rely? Oh yeah the Judicial. And the corporate media. That pretty a great deal is all of it ain't it? They don't have the Senate!!! If they did they'd have completed something.

You can't get fitness care, you cannot go bankrupt, you can not ask questions.

What else, The Borders nevertheless ain't secure, and we're a pissin off a plethora of nations, then add to that this total government vigor double some thing directive(s) that you just cannot even locate on the search engine if you category THE accurate name IN!! it be like they are anticipating some new crap (adventure?) to turn up with a view to join the rest of the dots, and simply have the United Dictatorship of the realm with (worse than) 24/7/365 martial legislations and every thing grinding to a halt.

I've in my opinion had it. I been quiet currently trigger i want a ruin from this crap. If they can not even vote anymore there is no longer a whole lot of the rest left anymore. No deserve to trouble any individual in the government anymore, possibly, or not it's time to simply disappear from them. Oh wait, can't do that either, can't even leave the country. I ain't even going to put in writing my Senators anymore. Why should I hassle with the anguish it puts me notwithstanding, i'm ill of it, or not it's like babysitting a fucking two yr historic.

If I have been dictator for a day, I swear to god there would be so many executive people in penal complex that they might should construct a jail camp. in the event that they might show their innocence --- great, however unless then, their protection playing cards are revoked and shredded, keys eliminated, entry denied, vaults locked, and the total military, could be moving to take care of the 360 degree border of the U.S., no longer this quagmire misplaced cause in Iraq.

I hope some ballsy accepted would circulate out some "simply DO IT." cards, the place you take it upon your self to simply clean up this corruption.

I had it. however then i'm not a dictator. i'm only one of the mythical little individuals.

A nothing, no person.

Sorry, I sound so depressed.

comment #9 [Permalink]... Dredd talked about on 6/11/2007 @ 5:59 am PT...

Rock on.

One aspect Bev Harris found when she entered her magnificent electronic voting desktop experience became "shock and awe".

She become stunned to find that there become only one tester of electronic vote casting machines for 300 million or so individuals.

however more than that, she found that there changed into no look at various for security. It become the exact same in the year 2525 1988:

Would one of these verify discover, for instance, a "time bomb" set to start transferring a definite share of votes from one candidate to a different at a certain time, or every other programmers' hints?

"Of course no longer," Naegele said. "or not it's now not a verify of the system. or not it's now not protection!"

(Ye Olde Timer's e book To The EVM Universe).

remark #10 [Permalink]... Phil mentioned on 6/eleven/2007 @ 6:14 am PT...

Dude, I mean Dredd, (i am hoping i will be able to name ya dude, maybe one day they are going to have just a few beers....)

2525 heh heh heh, I pray now not.

however seriously, I been announcing, what about on the DOPING stage?

Who's to say some rf packet burst can not completely exchange the good judgment?

Who's to assert what the half number on a chip is definitely what is inner the chip?

Who's to do the damaging reverse engineering on every single half interior each container and network from element a to element b?

Who's to claim the chip even is working? part's burn out on their own with no help in any respect.

or not it's the electronics dull (And no Dredd is not stupid.) The electronics make application appear to be a piker.

truly the truth is or not it's greater than that. it's racism, it's disenfranchisement, it's caging, it's just plain fscked up...every means you examine it, the more you seem to be the greater you locate, the greater you find the more pissed you get the more pissed you get the extra your physique suffers from stress.

And as a unique side be aware, the low frequency buzzing at my domestic has really been dangerous the final few days. A +20db can not even sleep at nighttime. i know the power (whatever the specifics are) is aimed toward my condo, since the second I stroll throughout the threshold of a door, or a window the sound nearly absolutely goes away.

Some people call this the TAOS HUM, I call it intellectual torture. it be fucking bullshit. it be not an astral hum both, that don't malicious program me, it's excessive frequency.

The torture noise, is low frequency, like a Diesel Engine Idling a number of blocks away, but there isn't any TRUCK, and or not it's only INDOORS, in case you go out, previous the edge of the window, or the door, the db level dies.

here's fucking actual. or not it's now not some genuine ear problem.

comment #11 [Permalink]... veritas pointed out on 6/eleven/2007 @ 6:forty two am PT...

As i have been announcing..... they will nonetheless be the use of DRE's which might be easily hacked and paper trails which mean fully NOTHING!

Any intelligent american ought to asked themselves at this aspect: "WHY VOTE"???????

WHY VOTE??? it is time to tell their candidates that they plan to vote for no one until/unless their corrupt gadget is cleaned up to the satisfaction of the americans!

A boycott of the subsequent election is THE handiest choice in order to GET THEIR attention, individuals.

comment #12 [Permalink]... veritas observed on 6/eleven/2007 @ 6:50 am PT...

besides, apart from the amoral, unlawful Iraq conflict which is tanking this country, no candidate is talking concerning the big "elephant in the room" which is their disgusting health care device.

we now have forty five Million americans without any sort of health care, which does not include these elders on Medicare, so what does that leave in terms of people that can "come up with the money for" to have fitness care??

If they weren't spending tens of millions of dollars (earlier than breakfast) daily in Iraq, simply imagine how with no trouble they could supply free fitness care to all citizens???

here is a sort of genocide - the sad undeniable fact that so many of their residents ought to choose between a roof over their head or medications and health care - or meals on their desk and their medicinal drugs/health care. What are they doing?? We're taking their eye off the ball....we're now not tending to their own backyard....we're spending billions of greenbacks on death and destruction in its place of taking that money and doing something humaitarian - throwing respectable funds, as they are saying, after "unhealthy"....very dangerous!

If a candidate arrives on the horizon who speaks about "health care for all" and this does not imply some cockamamie challenge like Edwards or Hillary's "within your budget health care" proposals, then they are going to win this election fingers DOWN.

Free fitness look after ALL is the identify of the online game and the definite "win" in 08! to this point, the next President has now not even come to the stage, so far as many people are worried.....WHO WILL it's??

sure - they need to be troubled concerning the genocide in Darfur....but what in regards to the genocide in their personal country happening appropriate below their noses? is never the indisputable fact that so many americans can not manage to pay for the health care they deserve to preserve existence a kind of genocide?

I without doubt consider so!

remark #13 [Permalink]... veritas mentioned on 6/11/2007 @ 6:54 am PT...

After analyzing the posts here today and stacking up the bloodless, complicated records, once more, I ought to make the inquiry: Why vote?

comment #14 [Permalink]... Dredd talked about on 6/11/2007 @ 6:fifty six am PT...

Phil #10

like to do some suds with you sometime bro. i love legendary little individuals ale or lager. :)

i was puzzling over Ellen's argument #1 (beneath HR 811, some “ballots” don’t have to ever rely) and that i find it looking for completeness, or relevance. Is it ale or lager? ;)

in the historic days right here they extolled the virtues of exit polls because:

Exit polling is a smartly-developed science, counseled via half a century of journey and perpetually enhancing methodology.

(Steven F. Freeman, Ph.D., et. alia). One imperative element concerning the neatly-developed exit polling science is that they certainly not count number all of the votes. They don't count any votes as a be counted of truth.

however they get it right.

So Ellen's argument is half-baked until and unless she explains why the incontrovertible fact that some paper ballots are not counted is dispositive of the concern.

The science is all about correct sampling.

the odds in HR 811 and S. 559 (some discretion as to percent is left to the states) enable for as a lot sampling as is achieved for exit polling. the key then is scientific sampling.

ample of the canards ... dude, I want to go have a beer with Phil.

comment #15 [Permalink]... Dredd observed on 6/11/2007 @ 7:00 am PT...

Veritas is a daring blogger ... ninety nine help, flip off the lights :)

remark #sixteen [Permalink]... veritas stated on 6/eleven/2007 @ 7:05 am PT...

hi Dredd!

i might believe you that exit polling has always been a fairly correct benchmark; besides the fact that children, or not it's now been proven that whereas american citizens slept believing that they'd have a Democratic President within the White residence, the "gremlins" have been going to city to deprave the exit polls to be sure their synchronicity with the consequences. So the place does that go away exit polling now?

remark #17 [Permalink]... veritas observed on 6/11/2007 @ 7:08 am PT...

i believe that this discussion/argument should be nonetheless occurring when election '08 rolls round so one can chalk yet another "stolen election" up to their stats. perhaps or not it's surest to preserve one's head within the sand and agree with the brainwashed mantra about how sincere and notable we're??

remark #18 [Permalink]... veritas referred to on 6/11/2007 @ 7:10 am PT...

sorry concerning the "daring", Dredd but for some cause my posts are popping out in that font once I've became it off....??? possibly now it's going to exchange...

comment #19 [Permalink]... Dredd stated on 6/11/2007 @ 7:18 am PT...

Veritas #16

Steve F. Freeman posted here some days ago. The science of exit polling is doing rather neatly.

it's how things are used or not used that matters.

be aware that Stalin used a hundred% paper ballots and still all the time won.

He gave away the key when he revealed that "It is not who votes [or how I could add] that counts, however who counts the votes."

The blind men deserve to hold close the entire elephant:

"It takes a good village to lift an honest electronic balloting machine system." -Dredd 2525

Oh ... yeah Phil ... when my girl gets pissed off at me she brings home a bottle of boastful Bastard Ale for me to peruse.

In case anybody changed into questioning why i am such an smug bastard from time to time. it's first rate stuff (the ale).

comment #20 [Permalink]... John Gideon spoke of on 6/eleven/2007 @ 7:38 am PT...

The "bold" is out of right here.

comment #21 [Permalink]... GWN talked about on 6/eleven/2007 @ 9:forty one am PT...

Dredd I even have on no account idea of you as boastful and in keeping with the advert for arrogant Bastard Ale you need to be subtle. :-)

Phil # 8 You say; "If I were dictator for a day, I swear to god there could be so many government people in reformatory that they would deserve to build a jail camp."i might do the same so possibly what you need is "somebody" to return and make a regime exchange. As your neighbour I suppose the frustration so can handiest think about the way it must be for you guys. Sorry all they can do is maybe send in additional Canadian Geese.

comment #22 [Permalink]... MarkH referred to on 6/11/2007 @ 10:23 am PT...

... veritas said on 6/11/2007 @ 6:fifty four am PT..."After studying the posts right here these days and stacking up the bloodless, complicated statistics, again, I have to make the inquiry: Why vote?"

since it's their civic obligation as americans.bought a problem with that?

remark #23 [Permalink]... MarkH said on 6/11/2007 @ 10:30 am PT...

considering the fact that the name of Holt's bill and it be sections says one aspect and the text says anything else it jogs my memory of the "Clear Skies" environmental legislation Bush passed. it be hairy legislation.

Who bought to Holt? was he blackmailed or purchased off?Enquiring minds want to understand.

remark #24 [Permalink]... veritas talked about on 6/11/2007 @ 10:31 am PT...

Mark: I definitely do if the likelihood exists that the elections of 2000 and 2004 were hacked. Why would you be an fool to stand on line and be made an extra fool of?? Are you that not worthy?

comment #25 [Permalink]... veritas mentioned on 6/eleven/2007 @ 10:33 am PT...

MarkH: Is it their "civic duty" then to be made a fool of and disenfranchised? I feel not. As they say: once a fool, always a fool. I bet that I actually have more self-respect than that.

comment #26 [Permalink]... Dredd referred to on 6/11/2007 @ eleven:40 am PT...

Thanks John #20 and GWN #21 ... yes send geese!

it is first rate that they discover the professionals and cons of HR 811 and S. 559.

I favored the fashioned HR 811 earlier than it came out of committee better than that which got here out of committee, and that i like what S. 559 provides ... I call it the outlaw Ken Blackwell clause.

although lest any one misunderstand, the criticism Ellen and others categorical is smartly bought via me and that i would now not seek to intimidate criticism.

youngsters I do warning us that they should grasp collectively in order that they do not grasp personally.

Zap_kitty and i bandered it from side to side virtually advert nauseum some time lower back, so i'm not going to enter greater detail lest I bore (blahg, blahg, blahg) my fellow bloggers.

remark #27 [Permalink]... veritas spoke of on 6/eleven/2007 @ 2:15 pm PT...

Re: The outlaw Ken Blackwell Clause - the place is he in the complicit mess which occurred in Ohio? in any case, he became Co-Chair of Bush/Cheney 04 while keeping the battle of activity of additionally being State Elections Committee Head. where's the goods on Blackwell and his Diebold connection??

comment #28 [Permalink]... Brad Friedman referred to on 6/11/2007 @ 3:37 pm PT...

To reply Dredd's query:

One central element about the smartly-developed exit polling science is that they by no means count the entire votes. They don't count number any votes as a depend of truth.

however they get it appropriate.

So Ellen's argument is half-baked until and unless she explains why the incontrovertible fact that some paper ballots are not counted is dispositive of the subject.

The science is all about appropriate sampling.

The wise assessment is just a little apples and oranges as I see it.

For one, as you neatly recognize, Exit Polls (even if correct or incorrect) haven't any legally binding fame, whereas "ballots" do.

in addition, if you're auditing paper trails from a DRE election, there is exactly NO approach to know even if or not ANY of paper trails used for the audit (basically, a spot-check) have ever been been tested as correct via the voter.

so that you've received a deceptive impression given to voters that their "paper trails" will truly be used to derive the outcomes of the election (none of them may be counted by way of anybody or any thing on election evening, and most effective 3 to 10% of them at some factor down the road) and when/if any of those trails, which they name "ballots" are truly counted, there is not any way to know that a single trail being counted in fact represents the intent of the voter.

actual paper-primarily based pollsystems together with hand-marked paper ballots are, by definition, a primary reflection of the voter intent. There isn't any solution to have any knowledge of the exact voter's intent when "auditing" "paper trail" elections.

Hope to put up a piece of writing soon on easy methods to somewhat with ease steal a complete country wide election via a DRE with "paper trail" gadget, wherein the paper trails match the gamed machines effects perfectly.

A Holt audit of such paper trails would show that DREs are "accurate" as soon as and for all, however that both the machines, and the "voter-established paper audit trails" (VVPAT) have each been gamed. appropriate below the nostril of vigilant voters.

remark #29 [Permalink]... Ellen Theisen mentioned on 6/11/2007 @ 3:37 pm PT...

Abacus asked where within the invoice it extends the EAC indefinitely. in addition to the sections The_Zapkitty pointed to, there is one that is awfully particular, even though now not explicit. at the conclusion of part 326 - funds to states for audits.

`(e) Authorization of Appropriations- There are approved to be appropriated to the commission for fiscal year 2008 and every succeeding fiscal 12 months $100,000,000 for funds below this area.

remark #30 [Permalink]... Ellen Theisen talked about on 6/eleven/2007 @ three:50 pm PT...

Brad pointed out:

there is not any way to know that a single path being counted in fact represents the intent of the voter.

so as to add to this, there is a new doctoral dissertation --- based on research as hostile to the hypothesis that so lots is in accordance with at the moment --- that tells us 60% of the voters within the examine didn't be aware wrong counsel on the overview monitor of the DRE. If it truly is the case just think about how many would notice error on the paper printout. In her dissertation, Sarah P. Everett of Rice college says:

These stories also go beyond usability comparisons and look at various no matter if voters be aware if their last ballots on the DRE mirror choices aside from what the voters selected. results indicate that over 60% of voters do not note if their votes as shown on the evaluate reveal are different than how they have been selected. entire races can be introduced or removed from ballots and voter’s candidate choices can also be flipped and the vast majority of clients do not word.

remark #31 [Permalink]... veritas stated on 6/eleven/2007 @ 4:17 pm PT...

Thanks Brad & Ellen for enlightening us and that i recognize the factual advice you offered;youngsters, it's far from assuaging my fears that my vote will count! As for me, I've already made up my mind and except/unless I see that there is a major attempt made to thwart the hijacking of yet a further election (I firmly agree with that George Bush was the "president who under no circumstances was"), I believe i'll forego the bother of even trying to vote. As of this moment, that circumstance actually does not exist anywhere in this nation. they now have gone through greater to make certain the validity and honesty of Iraq's election (albeit beneath armed preserve and curfew!) and still permit this chicanery to exist in ours - amazingly disgusting! So for now i'll ought to pass on voting anytime quickly and easily say: No thanks!

comment #32 [Permalink]... Ellen Theisen talked about on 6/eleven/2007 @ four:37 pm PT...


yes, we're in a large number. but I think there are two simple applications for voting:

1) to opt for the candidates2) to vote for democracy.

after I see 30% voter turnout, it makes me very sad that 70% of the people appeared to have voted in opposition t democracy. If intention #1 is in query, that you can nevertheless fulfill goal #1 via voting. And who is aware of, your vote may just definitely count number. Of path, in case you don't vote, then you could make sure it might not.

comment #33 [Permalink]... Ellen Theisen referred to on 6/11/2007 @ 4:39 pm PT...

oops, make that:

If intention #1 is in question, that you may nevertheless fulfill intention #2 by using voting.

remark #34 [Permalink]... Dolphyn pointed out on 6/11/2007 @ 4:fifty six pm PT...

information flash: Dennis Kucinich has withdrawn his guide for the Holt bill, and he plans to reintroduce HR 1600 which might require paper ballots for Presidential elections beginning 2008. thanks, Dennis!

Sources:OpEdNewsBev Harris

comment #35 [Permalink]... Brad Friedman talked about on 6/eleven/2007 @ 5:10 pm PT...

Veritas -

Um, the place do you are living? Given your feedback, i am beginning to suppose you may be as much as less decent than you at the beginning seemed here. anyplace it's, i'm guessing that you should vote by way of a paper ballot, even if or not it's by means of absentee. so that you can indicate the treatment for their electoral woes is to now not vote --- an apprehension cautioned time and once again by way of the DNC and chums, regardless of any facts to back up such a terror --- makes me rather suspicious of the true intent of your motives in all of sudden posting all of these comments today at BRAD weblog.

comment #36 [Permalink]... Dave Berman said on 6/11/2007 @ 6:fifty six pm PT...

remarkable article, Ellen, thank you on your research and sober assessments.

related to the elephant in the room, hmmm, is it election integrity or fitness care or impeachment or ...

There isn't any method to totally clear up any of those issues to the exclusion of the others, and sure now not at all unless they appreciate that peaceable Revolution Is The Elephant within the Room. (historic hyperlink, i have been asserting this a long time...)

remark #37 [Permalink]... Agent ninety nine noted on 6/eleven/2007 @ 8:31 pm PT...


balloting is the least that you would be able to do. They want so tons extra, but if you can't even try this, what the hell correct do you ought to gripe about anything else?

comment #38 [Permalink]... John Russell pointed out on 6/11/2007 @ 8:fifty four pm PT...

I encourage individuals to evaluation The Election Reform doc on my site. . The Holt bill, too susceptible within the initial part, has been changed into a complete POC. In Florida they have endured all of the hints and remember the crooks are at all times two steps/iterations of their plans to steal the next election... ahead of us. dwell vigilant. be taught what is non-negotiable concerning election reform... stick to it and retain ramming it down the throat of all these legislators that are stalling on behalf of conserving manage... for the "business enterprise" John Russell, Contestant,CD 5 Fla. 2006

remark #39 [Permalink]... abacus talked about on 6/eleven/2007 @ 10:forty five pm PT...

the zapkitty - #5

Tnx very an awful lot


remark #forty [Permalink]... abacus noted on 6/11/2007 @ eleven:02 pm PT...

Ellen #29

Tnx - also tnx for high-quality summing up

Veritas - accept as true with also...a vote on native concerns can make a change...our closing election for governor right here in Washington ended with 369 vote margin...

remark #41 [Permalink]... Dredd spoke of on 6/12/2007 @ 6:13 am PT...

Brad, you pointed out:

For one, as you well be aware of, Exit Polls (whether correct or wrong) haven't any legally binding repute, whereas "ballots" do.

That doesn't handle what Ellen's argument nor what my counter argument offered. You injected a straw man.

Neither Ellen nor I dispute the existence of felony ballots nor the legality of exit polls.

She argued at her aspect #1 that "some “ballots” don’t need to ever be counted". and she or he concluded that is ipso facto bad.

I countered that it is not ipso facto bad as a result of sufficient can be counted to see if there's a discrepancy, using scientific sampling, as exit polling does.

And exit polls can show defects even where even zero votes are counted by using hand. that's as a result of they have got developed a science, not only opinion, and that they have it mastered.

I did not even say exit polling can be used, I stated like exit polling.

My focus changed into that correct sampling negates the need to count a large variety of ballots. Scientific sampling.

Your argument introduced to me is whatever fully distinctive from my element, and doesn't handle my challenge to Ellen's assumption.

remark #forty two [Permalink]... Dredd said on 6/12/2007 @ 6:sixteen am PT...

Brad #28

You additionally observed:

furthermore, if you're auditing paper trails from a DRE election, there is precisely NO way to know whether or no longer ANY of paper trails used for the audit (definitely, a spot-determine) have ever been been established as correct by way of the voter.

sure, and in case you are not auditing paper trails you aren't. So what? I didn't tackle that challenge in any respect. Neither did Ellen in her element #1.

The question "are they paper ballots or are they paper trails" is one of ideal reality. Neither facet of a debate can command the reply. either side are confined to presenting argument. simplest the judges can come to a decision if you win or unfastened your argument.

Making a conclusion of superior fact in an argument may not work earlier than a tribunal where these considerations will definitely emerge as some day.

Then and there the arguments will be required to discuss with the statutory textual content, offer interpretation, then persuade the judges with legitimate argument that the interpretation advanced is definitely, and legislation, suitable.

And the simplest arguments that allows you to work there are appropriate ones based mostly upon the legislation of statutory interpretation. it is, in any case, the legislations that prison interpretative options be used to interpret any congressional statute. and people laws of interpretation are neatly settled.

Assuming through concluding on an best reality is a form of arrogance within the eyes of tribunals that should trust both sides of an argument.

An perspective of "i'm correct so you judges can tell my opponent to close up with the intention to all go domestic now" might not get very far.

it's appropriate decorum to respect the different facet's arguments and features by addressing such arguments directly and accurately. I actually have viewed dire final result encounter litigants who misrepresent the argument of an opposing litigant earlier than a tribunal.

i admire to think about myself earlier than a tribunal once I debate, so i may develop into more exercised in correct debate.

comment #43 [Permalink]... Dredd said on 6/12/2007 @ 6:26 am PT...


Your factor #2 ("Secret vote-counting is recommended") is half-baked.

It does not acknowledge that one of the most two HR 811 bills continues to be around and may be the one which prevails. one in all them nonetheless mandates open source code.

Neither does your argument renowned that S. 559 mandates open supply code.

i hope you're conscious that congress is bicameral and both the Senate and residence versions ought to be fused or morphed into one invoice ultimately.

So, as it now stands, two of the three latest models mandate open supply code, and just one doesn't.

it is a two to one argument against your fact. i'm hoping you do not believe that places your argument within the majority!

comment #44 [Permalink]... Ellen Theisen pointed out on 6/12/2007 @ 7:02 am PT...

Dredd, you mentioned:

She argued at her point #1 that "some “ballots” don’t should ever rely". and she or he concluded this is ipso facto dangerous.

I countered that it is not ipso facto bad as a result of adequate may be counted to see if there's a discrepancy, the use of scientific sampling, as exit polling does.

The element i used to be trying to make is that items of paper described as "ballots" needn't ever be counted. I agree with it is ipso facto dangerous. in the event that they aren't going to ALL rely, then they may still be referred to as "printouts" or "reviews," but now not "ballots."

You additionally referred to:

Your aspect #2 ("Secret vote-counting is endorsed") is half-baked.

It does not acknowledge that one of the two HR 811 bills is still around and can be the one that prevails. one among them nevertheless mandates open supply code.

I wasn't speaking of other bills, handiest HR 811. however, it's elaborate to believe that the utility trade led by Microsoft might swoop into a condo committee and reverse the disclosed software requirement with the gold standard of ease, however would be unable to do the equal within the Senate.

comment #45 [Permalink]... BOB younger spoke of on 6/12/2007 @ 9:06 am PT...


“(Steven F. Freeman, Ph.D., et. alia). One relevant point concerning the smartly-developed exit polling science is that they certainly not count all the votes. They do not count number any votes as a count number of reality.but they get it appropriate.So Ellen's argument is half-baked unless and unless she explains why the incontrovertible fact that some paper ballots are not counted is dispositive of the difficulty.The science is all about relevant sampling.”If the sampling is achieved correctly they do have a excessive chance of getting it correct. That likelihood may additionally no longer be as excessive because the chance that GWB was by no means elected president of the United States through the vote of the individuals but it remains very excessive.

but as you stated “The science is all about correct sampling.” the place relevant is via far essentially the most crucial consideration. should you do everything for your vigour to see that as many as viable of the votes so that it will no longer doubtless be to your candidate are not counted, as Karl Rove has been schooled to do and evidently is doing very very very neatly, then proper sampling is naturally now not even close to being within the image. to disregard all provisional ballots because Karl Rove and his cohorts in crime felt these people would now not vote neoCon will never ever ever ever cause relevant sampling. So should you compare the science of exit polling to the NeoCon addiction of selectively counting in the main likely favorable votes you have got ventured neatly beyond the problem of comparing apples to oranges. you are evaluating nonsense to good judgment. They not ever ever ever ever could be a suit!

while the likelihood of and exit poll being suitable if performed accurately may also be very excessive it is rarely an genuine science. it really is why any one who definitely supports democracy will insist that each and every vote count as forged. anything less is a sham.

HR 811 is another opportunity for congress to faux to be supporting democracy while not getting us any nearer to being a democracy than they are actually and that very evidently is not even shut.

even if the paper trails may still be referred to as ballots is a worthless facet difficulty. in the event that they don’t make their paper trails out of sentimental squeezable tissue they are absolutely nugatory no depend what you all ultimately agree to label them.

So alas Ellens declare that "Rush Holt's HR 811 Does extra harm than first rate" certain appears like a really huge understatement to me! Karl Rove may still love the new version of HAVA the passing of HR 811 will create for him! :(

remark #46 [Permalink]... Dredd referred to on 6/12/2007 @ 9:44 am PT...

Ellen #44

You talked about:

The factor i used to be trying to make is that pieces of paper described as "ballots" don't need to ever count.

(emphasis mine). usually it is an admission that you didn't make the factor you were making an attempt to make. Which is a concession.

changing an argument ex put up facto renders the condition into some thing comparable to the wind blowing and altering the wasteland sands into a constantly unstable scenario.

And on blogs it turns into blahg, blahg, blahg, and unluckily no one gets anywhere true.

comment #forty seven [Permalink]... Dredd stated on 6/12/2007 @ 10:eleven am PT...

Ellen #forty four you mentioned "I wasn't speaking of other expenses, handiest HR 811."

good enough, but there are two condominium 811 Holt bills, and there is additionally another within the Senate (S. 559). they are all still central to the dialogue.

As you understand the congress is bi-cameral and all three types will need to be hammered or morphed into one remaining edition that each the residence and the Senate should pass.

If that closing version fails in both the apartment or within the Senate it fails length and is not despatched to the president to turn into legislation or be vetoed.

comment #forty eight [Permalink]... Dredd observed on 6/12/2007 @ 11:08 am PT...

Bob younger #45

You referred to:

whether the paper trails should still be known as ballots is a worthless side challenge.

best if you are on the worthless side of the argument. :)

consider that american legislations requires that each one portions of congressional statutes take delivery of full that means and that no part is rendered superfluous or meaningless.

the day past the Federal courtroom of Appeals for the 4th Circuit chided the USA lawyer for making your argument:

To examine the statute because the govt proposes would eliminate the 2nd step and render the statutory language ... superfluous --- whatever thing courts are detest to do. See, e.g.,Mackey v. Lanier assortment agency & Serv., Inc., 486 U.S. 825, 837 (1988) (“[W]e are hesitant to undertake an interpretation of a congressional enactment which renders superfluous an extra element of that identical legislation.”).

(Al-Marri v Wright, No. 06-7427, 4th Circuit, June eleven, 2007, at pages 17-18 of the pdf).

it's sooner or later important no matter if the term "paper ballot", which seems some forty nine instances within the fashioned textual content, potential what it says and says what it capability. Or even if it potential "paper path" even tho the term "paper path" seems zero times in the text.

You ought to get previous a number of limitations which are neatly based in the legislations of statutory interpretation.

and that i am certain you won't get via these barriers with your argument.

remark #49 [Permalink]... Helen Rainier spoke of on 6/12/2007 @ 11:39 am PT...

Who, exactly, did the "mark-up" on this invoice? It bears no resemblance to what was at first proposed.

Has Holt repudiated it in its revised version?

comment #50 [Permalink]... Dredd pointed out on 6/13/2007 @ 1:57 am PT...

Helen #forty nine

The mark-up looks to me to were directed with the aid of the electronic vote casting desktop industry, such as Diebold.

It removed or watered down the long-established requirement that the source code be made attainable to a citizen when the citizen requested a look at it.

Ellen thinks Microsoft became liable, however, they symbolize just one operating device (home windows).

The congress can't choose one working system over an additional with out justification, so for example, Linux and Unix should still also be candidates for the working system of digital vote casting machines.

So i'm nevertheless of the opinion that the Diebolds of the area had extra to do with it than Microsoft did.

Brad made some comments on yet another thread a couple of days in the past that offers me rationale to consider his strategy to criticising the expenses is more low cost a criticism of the bills.

He takes what I name an "operational method" and argues that operationally (how the invoice in fact works no remember what it says) is to increase the vote assistance on a computer over paper ballots. And accordingly, he argues, the "paper ballot" lingo is like a human appendix and practically useless.

that's a far better logical approach than one of the different arguments IMO. although, as I defined to him on those different threads, when one is arguing earlier than the respectable judicial tribunals that goes to be a difficult argument to be triumphant on.

those courts are strongly in choose of the "undeniable text rule" which capability they consider congress skill what it says when the textual content is obvious, and they enforce the average meaning of commonplace words in such bills.

I feel they might say that "paper ballot" within the context of the expenses potential precisely that and nothing else.

comment #51 [Permalink]... Dredd stated on 6/13/2007 @ 5:07 am PT...

I went again over HR 811 as offered in Feburary, 2007, earlier than the amendment to it came out of committee.

one of the vital brought up functions within the textual content of HR 811 is:

"to require a voter-verified everlasting paper ballot"

it is 4 issues:

1) voter-verified2) permanent3) paper4) ballot.

The definitions, in the textual content of the invoice, of those four issues are:

1) voter-confirmed = "made attainable for inspection and verification through the voter before the voter's vote is solid and counted"

2) everlasting = "the entire period of the retention and maintenance duration called for through title III of the Civil Rights Act of 1960 (forty two u.s.a.C. 1974 et seq.) or below applicable State legislation, whichever is longer"

three) paper = "long lasting paper of archival great capable of withstanding numerous counts and recounts without compromising the primary integrity of the ballots, and capable of preserving the assistance marked, printed, or recorded on them"

4) ballot = "examples of ... a ballot include": (a) "a paper ballot marked via the voter for the goal of being counted by means of hand or examine through an optical scanner or different an identical gadget"; (b) "a paper pollprepared by using the voter to be mailed to an election respectable (whether from a domestic or overseas region)"; (c) "a paper pollcreated through the use of a pollmarking gadget or gadget"; and (d) "a paper ballot produced with the aid of a touch display or different electronic voting computing device, as long as in each case the voter is permitted to investigate the ballot in a paper kind"

I suppose it will also be relatively observed that, in the clear absence of the time period "paper path" anyplace within the textual content of the invoice, this invoice is supposed to center of attention on paper ballots to a big degree.

remark #52 [Permalink]... Dredd noted on 6/13/2007 @ 6:47 am PT...

these 4 things outlined in publish #fifty one are given pre-eminence in the case of "any recount or audit". thus far so decent, however what triggers a recount or an audit?

This does:

in the experience of any inconsistencies or irregularities between any digital vote tallies and the vote tallies decided with the aid of counting through hand the particular person permanent paper ballots produced pursuant to subparagraph (A), and discipline to subparagraph (D), the individual permanent paper ballots shall be the authentic and proper listing of the votes solid and shall be used because the legit ballots for purposes of any recount or audit performed with admire to any election for Federal workplace during which the balloting gadget is used.

this is the place the rub involves one of the detractors of the invoice. The phrase "digital vote tallies" is scary because the bill doesn't set off audits or recounts except the election is very shut.

Very close is a extremely small one or two p.c difference between first vicinity and second vicinity. for that reason, the entire respectable things are not invoked unless the election is well-nigh too near name.

there is one element of the text that may well be read to require a random, unannounced audit of every election to be decided by way of the Election Audit Board, created by means of the brand new invoice:

... an Election Audit Board to administer, without develop be aware to the precincts chosen, random hand counts of the voter-confirmed paper ballots required to be produced and preserved pursuant to area 301(a)(2) for every such election held in the State (and, on the option of the State or jurisdiction concerned, of elections for State and local workplace held at the same time as such election).

(Sec. 321(a), emphasis brought). that might in fact be a very good factor. nevertheless it may additionally not be the case.

Brad has argued that here's now not operative and the precise operative mechanism is simply those situations where the vote is awfully, very close.

hence, all that hackers or fraudsters would must do is hack the vote or design the code with an eye toward making sure the election's unofficial count is outdoor the small percent required to invoke the audit mechanism.

and that's a sound criticism since the textual content is ambiguous ample that a tribunal would so hold IMO.

The invoice may be quite simply fixed to evidently state that the Election Audit Board should do a random audit of a correct number of precincts scientifically selected (as in the case of exit polls) no remember how some distance aside first and 2d region became in the digital vote tallies.

remark #fifty three [Permalink]... huge dan observed on 6/14/2007 @ eleven:forty nine am PT...

You must vote...MAKE them steal the election! if you do not VOTE, they do not even must STEAL THE ELECTION! it is why you have to vote anyway! The most efficient they desire, is for you now not to even VOTE!

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